Opening words
Startup Web3, chat every Wednesday!
(Startup Web3.0) is an interview program for Chinese Web3.0 entrepreneurs initiated by Mankiw LLP. Every Wednesday night, we will invite industry leaders, first-line institutions, well-known entrepreneurs, etc. to share their experiences. We hope to promote the compliance development of China's Web3.0 industry through positive voices, rational discussions, and experience sharing.
As the Web3 wave sweeps the world, blockchain technology is reshaping the future of the Internet. What kind of talents does this emerging industry need? What is its prospect? Is it worthwhile for outstanding talents to join it? In this issue, Lawyer Niu Xiaojing from Mankiw Law Firm had an in-depth conversation with Mr. James, the founder of Talentverse. From industry trends to talent needs, to career choice advice, Mr. James combined his rich experience to bring us an informative discussion, so that we can fully understand the talent code of Web3!
(The audio transcription has been processed by AI and may contain omissions and errors.)
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Talentverse's unique value: purity, technology empowerment, global delivery
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: The theme of this interview is what kind of talents the Web3 industry needs, what its future prospects are, and whether it is worthy of outstanding talents to join. Please introduce Talentverse first. What unique value do you think it has? Can you summarize it with a few keywords?
Teacher James: Of course. There are three key words in my mind:
1. Purity: In the headhunting industry, everyone is involved in various fields, such as consumer goods, Internet, finance, real estate, etc. But we are very pure, and we can be said to be a headhunting company that only does Web3 and blockchain industries. All consultants and businesses are focused on this vertical field.
2. Technology empowerment: There are some so-called Web3 headhunting companies in the industry, but their operating methods and business processes tend to be traditional or operational. In addition to having a consulting team of a certain size, we have also built our own talent pool. In the past few cycles, we have accumulated about 50,000 talents who specialize in Web3 and blockchain, or are interested in it, forming our own talent pool. At the same time, we actively explore and apply AI technology. Whether it is in sourcing or communication, we use AI tools, so we are a very technology-enabled organization. We also have a community of about 3,000 people, and we have exclusive channels on Xiaohongshu, WeChat, and Telegram.
3. Global delivery: Although we originated in China, we have also made global layouts thanks to the fact that many Chinese bosses went overseas or participated in the globalization process in the last cycle and this cycle. At present, the consulting team is not only in mainland China, but also in Japan, North America, Southeast Asia and other places. In the past few years, the positions we have delivered have covered several major continents and markets except Africa, and there are many successful cases.
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: Thank you for sharing. Hearing the three words "pure", "technology empowerment" and "global delivery", I think Mankiw Law Firm and Talentverse have similarities, both of which are vertical players deeply engaged in Web3. So when did you enter the Web3 industry?
Teacher James: Let me briefly introduce my background. After I graduated from graduate school in Shanghai in 2007, I worked for a well-known professional headhunting company for three years. From 2010 to 2020, I have been working as a recruitment manager or HRBP on the corporate side, and witnessed some development trends of the domestic economy during this period. At the beginning, I was responsible for technical operations and recruitment of functional sectors in a foreign bank for four years. Later, I went to an American clothing retail company and was responsible for recruitment in Greater China, including headquarters and stores.
In 2017, I transferred to a private enterprise. At that time, the real estate and asset management industries were very popular. I joined a private enterprise's asset management and wealth management company. After that, I went to a private listed company and was responsible for all recruitment and HR work of the overseas business department of the group. Later, I also got involved in the Internet for a period of time. Next, let's talk about Web3-related content.
I started to enter this field in 2020. In fact, there is a story here, because the mobility of talents in the Internet and Web3 had already emerged at that time. I first met Ben from Bybit. At that time, Bybit was still relatively small in Shanghai. I was impressed by Ben’s vision and conversation. We talked several times through an intermediary, but by mistake I did not join Bybit. But we have a good relationship now and keep in touch frequently. Later, I went to Binance and was responsible for global recruitment for a period of time. Frankly speaking, I had only heard of Web3 and blockchain at that time, and I didn’t have a deep understanding of it, nor did I have as much faith in it as I do now. But I still have to thank the opportunities of the times, so starting in 2020, I officially engaged in human resources work in the field of Web3 and blockchain.
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: It sounds like you have a very rich career experience. Although it spans many industries, the main theme seems to have always been human resources, right?
Teacher James: Yes, this has not changed. Regardless of the industry, field or country, the core competency or responsibility is always recruitment and human resources.
What kind of talents does Web3 need?
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: You mentioned "accidental" and it made me curious. Many young people may not be able to plan their lives clearly when they just graduate, and they don't know what industry or position is suitable for them. What specific or personalized suggestions do you have for people who are about to leave campus or just enter the society? Are they suitable for industries like Web3?
Teacher James: I have interviewed tens of thousands of people in my career, from executives with annual salaries of tens of millions to outstanding students. If you let me give some advice to students, although we are talking about Web3 today, I think there is a universal principle: you must start from your own interests and talents and choose an industry that can accumulate long-term. The path and years of career development are very long, and it must be a field that you like and are willing to invest in. If you can combine your talents in the position, whether it is Web3 or other industries, such a work and life atmosphere and growth will be the best, and the return on investment will be the highest.
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: Based on your experience, from traditional industries to the Internet and now Web3, what subjective differences do you feel before and after entering Web3?
Teacher James: Web3 is a dynamically changing industry. At present, there are several major differences. First, Web3 is a high-risk industry with many opportunities and risks. This is a balance. Where there are high risks, there are also great opportunities, so it has attracted a large number of new talents and new funds. Second, in the past decade or so, Web3 has grown from small to large, and many cross-border phenomena have emerged. For example, an artist turned to Web3 and became an NFT creator; or a financial economist or university professor turned the theory into a DeFi model. Cross-border is very common. From the perspective of human resources or organization, the organizational diversity of Web3 is difficult for traditional companies to achieve. In the past, factors such as the domestic epidemic and Web3 going overseas have caused organizations to slowly change from centralization to decentralization. Later, it was found that decentralization had problems, and a hybrid model emerged. We have a client who usually works separately, but has a few days of centralized office work every month. This form is not common in traditional Fortune 500 or industrial companies. Another point is that Web3 is a value amplifier. If you are in the wind or at the peak of the cycle, you can greatly increase the value of individuals or companies; but at the bottom of the cycle, the value may shrink, or even be lower than its own value. These are several differences from traditional industries.
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: You mentioned that high risks and opportunities coexist. Does choosing to enter Web3 require a strong heart? For example, you may face a situation where your income is low or even zero for several months?
Teacher James: Yes, that’s how we feel. For example, in the last cycle, when the FTX crash and Luna incident occurred, the market could be described as “widespread grief”. Many organizations laid off employees, and it was difficult to even maintain operations, let alone recruit new employees. In this kind of cyclical industry, there will inevitably be a surplus of talent and fewer opportunities in a bear market, so be mentally prepared.
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: The cyclical development of Web3 seems to be much faster than that of traditional industries and even the Internet industry. We see that the big cycle of other industries may be 10 years or even decades, while Web3 may have a cycle of two, three or four years, right?
Teacher James: Yes, this analogy is very good. In traditional industries, such as the Internet, it usually takes 7 to 10 years for a company to go from birth to listing, and investment institutions generally invest for 7 to 10 years in a "5+2" model. However, Web3 currently relies on the bull-bear cycle of Bitcoin's four-year halving. For many innovative projects, whether they are equity financing or token financing, the listing cycle is greatly shortened, so the overall cyclicality is shorter. You can use the listing rhythm as a benchmark.
Age Limits and Career Change Opportunities
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: Now many large Internet companies are laying off employees over 45 years old. They have high salary requirements and bleak future. For people over 40, does the Web3 industry still have such a strict age limit?
Teacher James: This is a trend change. In the past, from the last cycle to last year, the age-unfriendliness was even more obvious than in traditional industries. Because most projects are founded by young founders, they have a good academic background, bilingual skills, trendy ideas, and venture capital is willing to support them. People born in the 80s or 70s are slower than young people in their understanding and acceptance of Web3, resulting in a gap between ability and age. But now there are new changes. The United States has passed Bitcoin and Ethereum ETFs, and Trump also strongly supports blockchain, and traditional financial institutions and companies are beginning to pour in. Not only pursuing technological innovation, but also entering traditional finance, asset management, insurance and other fields. These fields have advantages for older people. It not only talks about technology, but also involves factors such as capital, assets, connections, and networks. As the diversity of Web3 and the scale of the market expand, the age factor will be more friendly than before.
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: If someone wants to switch from other industries to Web3, which of their past career backgrounds or industries are more likely to be welcomed by Web3?
Teacher James: Let me give you an example. I recently met with a domestic institution in Tokyo. They acquired an overseas bank with a cryptocurrency license. It originally engaged in traditional commercial banking business, and the team had blockchain and digital currency experts. Now they want to develop stablecoin business, which requires several types of talents. The first type is marketing talents, who are marketing personnel from traditional financial institutions. Their promotion scope and branding tone are in line with the aesthetic vision of traditional financial professionals, but their business has shifted to stablecoin or digital currency scenarios. The second type is BD talents, who used to work in traditional financial institutions in trade or sales, have network and banking know-how, and can transfer their experience to digital currency and compliance solutions. Therefore, if you can combine your original background with the application of blockchain in your business and transfer your past capabilities or resources, your career change will be smoother.
New trends in talent supply and demand
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: From the perspective of the supply and demand of talents and project parties, is there a talent shortage or saturation? Are there any new rules?
Teacher James: This question is very interesting and it also affects our business strategy adjustment. I look at it from two dimensions. First, from 2014 to 2021, for example, from 2017 or earlier to 2021, the supply of talents in the entire market was less than the demand, and everyone had higher requirements for the scarcity of talents. When I was at Binance, there were few Web3 and blockchain practitioners, especially technical personnel, and we poached people from Internet giants and traditional financial institutions at all costs. Now, with the continuous influx of global and domestic talents, the structure has changed. When looking for people at the first time, we will not only look at the background of Internet giants, but will give priority to whether there is relevant industry experience. If we can't find it, we will expand to the Internet field. The supply is much better than the previous two cycles. Second, a more directional dimension is that we recruited a lot of technical talents for the project party in the first half of 2024, but from the second half of the year to now, the number of technical positions has decreased, but the number of positions such as BD, marketing, and brand has increased. The reason behind this is that when the bear market turns to the bull market, the project party urgently recruits technical talents to prepare for listing; in the middle of the bull market, everyone rushes to list, and the investment in brand, market, and operation increases. There is another indicator. In the four-year cycle, in the first year, project parties recruited a large number of people, while large institutions such as exchanges recruited less. Now exchanges and large institutions are recruiting more, while the number of project parties has decreased. These two dimensions can help us judge what stage the market has reached.
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: As the Web3 market becomes more and more prosperous, have our standards or dimensions for selecting talents also become higher? You mentioned that in the beginning all you needed was a background in a large Internet company, but now do you need to understand both Internet technology and Web3?
Teacher James: Yes, this is the underlying reason for the change in supply and demand. When there are few practitioners, the requirements are low, and when there are many practitioners, the requirements are high. Now the standards have become obviously stricter. In the past, there were not many requirements for industry experience and language skills. Now basically Web3 experience is required, and it is best to be fluent in Chinese and English. Further refinement will be based on educational background, at least graduation from a 985 or 211 prestigious university, and even picky about past experience, whether you have worked in a well-known project or large organization. These screening criteria indirectly prove whether your understanding of the industry and underlying capabilities are sufficient.
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: In the past two years, the word "volume" has become popular in society, and various industries are becoming more and more competitive. Is the Web3 industry also becoming more and more competitive? Is its competitiveness different from other industries? Although we are competitive, do we have a better future?
Teacher James: Web3 is more competitive and more concentrated in unit time, but the time is short, and the hope and gains that can be seen are far higher than those of traditional industries. Web3 is more competitive in efficiency and ideas, while traditional industries are more competitive in terms of efficiency and ideas, as well as interpersonal relationships, so Web3 is more competitive.
Salary, Risk and Employment Models
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: Due to the high risk of Web3, are the salaries more attractive than those in traditional industries? What high-paying jobs can you share in the past year?
Teacher James: Salaries ultimately depend on market supply and demand and the total size of assets. In the last cycle, jumping from traditional industries to blockchain, a 30% increase was considered low. People felt that the risk was high and they might lose their jobs, so a large increase was reasonable. But in this cycle, due to layoffs and business impacts in the Internet industry, many people are unemployed, and psychological expectations have dropped to the same level as the Internet, so the increase is not as exaggerated as in the previous cycle. In individual cases, it depends more on core capabilities. If you are one of the few talents in the market who can do it, there will be a big premium, whether it is technology, products or market. From a numerical point of view, the bandwidth of technical positions ranges from US$3,000 to US$20,000, depending on the technical field and experience. The front-end or less experienced ones are lower; the market end ranges from US$3,000 to US$15,000-18,000. So the most important thing is whether your ability and experience are what the other party needs most and are irreplaceable.
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: What is the salary structure and payment method of Web3? Are they all tokens or cryptocurrencies, or a mixture? What is the mainstream?
Teacher James: The traditional industry has a basic salary of 12 or 13 months salary plus a year-end bonus, and a performance score of 0-4 months. Listed companies have annual RSU vesting. Web3 has various forms. Large compliant institutions issue legal tender, pay social security, five insurances and one housing fund, and are very compliant, like traditional companies. We have such customers. There are also non-compliant ones, which pay a basic salary plus a stable currency, and social security is based on the minimum standard or negotiated with employees. Project parties are mostly in the form of offer letters, issuing legal tender, stable currency, and token incentives, depending on the department and level. Token is a double-edged sword. The return when cashed out far exceeds the fixed salary, and there will be losses if it is not cashed out. This also reflects the high risk of the industry.
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: From what I heard, Web3 practitioners may face higher risks than those in traditional industries. For example, if a project ends or the project party goes bankrupt, the relationship will be severed and it will be difficult to get financial compensation. Will this affect salary levels?
Teacher James: Yes, high risk may push up salary expectations, but it ultimately depends on supply and demand. In the last cycle, high risk justified high salaries, but this cycle, due to the increase in talent supply, the increase is not as exaggerated as before. Salary levels still depend on the market and personal ability.
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: In the current Web3 employment or recruitment field, what is the cooperation model between talents and project parties or employers? Is it a labor relationship, an ordinary cooperative relationship, or a flexible combination, where both parties are more like mutual cooperation?
Teacher James: There are many forms, and we have stepped into some pitfalls. From a normative perspective, large institutions and exchanges will sign labor contracts or cooperative relationships. The subject is not necessarily located in the country, depending on the position. Project parties often use offer letters, which may be recognized overseas, but have weak legal effects in China. At present, there is no unified standard for the establishment of labor relations. It depends on the positioning of the project party or organization and the market value of the candidate. There are also forms of project outsourcing, such as design, brand upgrades, and official website development. Labor contracts are not signed, and they are outsourced. There are many forms.
Lessons from successful and failed cases
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: You have interviewed so many people, do you have any cases of success or failure that you can share? For example, what were the reasons for success for cases where someone changed careers or joined Web3? What were the pitfalls or subjective and objective factors for failure?
Teacher James: Successful cases, such as those who joined Binance, OKX, and Bybit in 2020 or earlier, as long as they persisted until now, have achieved good results in terms of ability, industry awareness, or income. This is an opportunity given by the times. The same will be true in the future. To join the industry early and reap the benefits of take-off, personal efforts are important, but the industry has a lot of help. From an individual perspective, successful people have several characteristics: the first is initiative. For example, there is a classmate who does graphic design. He was not originally a Web3 designer, but he took the initiative to take over operations. When others did not do it, he said he would do it. He regarded work as learning, and the boss paid him to grow. This attitude helped him grow a lot. The second is growth mindset. When encountering problems or mistakes, some people shirk responsibility. People with growth mindset reflect on their own shortcomings, make changes, or lead others to change, and have high evaluations for cooperation with others. The third is strong curiosity. Web3 is developing rapidly, and people who are not curious will not want to come in unless they are forced. Curiosity allows him to discover new opportunities, meet challenges, and get excited when seeing new things. He has strong self-motivation. In a recent case, a 32-year-old programmer from a large company was laid off. After looking for a job for more than half a year, we recommended a famous Web3 company to him, but he chose the offer from Xiaomi. I suggested that he try Web3. He has experience in large companies, Web3 has high salaries, does not require going to Beijing, is more resistant to risks, and has a wider path. He is still considering it. Most cases of failure are due to lack of preparation, failure to keep up with the fast pace of the industry, and missed windows of opportunity.
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: You mentioned timing, like investing needs to be done early. Is Web3 still in its early stages? Is it an opportunity for young people?
Teacher James: It depends on the perspective. If Bitcoin is benchmarked against the market value of gold, and more applications are on the chain, I think it is very early. The biggest difference between Web3 and Web2 is that information belongs to individuals. Unlike the platform monetization model, it respects human information sovereignty. If this is the only way for the development of civilization, we are very early. The world is developing unevenly. People don’t care about privacy at the stage of food and clothing, and they don’t care about it even more on the line between life and death. But when productivity reaches a certain stage, such as the United States and Japan, privacy is valued, while domestic or underdeveloped countries tend to ignore it. When human society moves towards prosperity, the consensus on personal rights and interests will be clearer. Web3 and on-chain concepts are one of the best solutions and opportunities for young people.
Talentverse Vision
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: I noticed that there is a phrase in your background: “Better Talent, Better Metaverse”. Can you explain the meaning? Is it the company’s vision or some kind of cultural symbol?
Teacher James: When we were first established, we positioned ourselves as a professional Web3 headhunting service company. After this tone was set, we believed that the two most important types of capital for industry development, whether traditional or Web3: wealth capital, that is, money; and human capital, which is to use talent as capital to accelerate the iteration and upgrade of companies or industries. We hope to provide the industry with better talents through our own efforts, making the cyber world, the metaverse, or the future Web3 world a better place. So it is called "Better Talent, Better Metaverse", and the name is Talentverse.
Transitions and suggestions for entering Web3
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: You firmly chose Web3 and left the traditional or Internet industry. Was there a turning point, experience or trigger that prompted this change?
Teacher James: Actually, it is an opportunity given by the times. Before joining Binance, I didn’t particularly want to look for Web3 opportunities. There was no big turning point at that time. But after joining Binance and leaving, I found that many smart people are working in this industry. A former colleague who graduated from Stanford said that in terms of employment at Stanford and Silicon Valley, Web3 has always been in the top three, and the specific ranking varies depending on the year. I think the influx of smart people into an industry represents advanced ideas or thinking, and I felt that it should be explored in depth at that time. It was a turning point.
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: Life is full of coincidences. If someone happens to be interested in Web3, would you recommend that they try a Web3 position, experience it for a few years, and see if they are suitable for it, like it, and are passionate about it? How about this suggestion?
Teacher James: I would strongly recommend it. A recent case is about a 32-year-old programmer who used to work at Alibaba, Tencent, and ByteDance. He later went to an automotive software company, but was laid off last year and had been unsuccessful in finding a job for more than half a year. We recommended a famous Web3 company, but he received an offer from Xiaomi. I communicated with him and said: You are 32 or 33 years old, just got married, and are in Shanghai. Xiaomi wants you to go to Beijing; our clients can work remotely or occasionally offline. And you are a programmer. If you are not a team leader at the age of 35 in the Internet industry, your future will be even narrower once you become unemployed. Try Web3, with your experience in large companies, strong risk resistance, and high salary. He is still considering it. For those who want to try, even if you can be a volunteer for free, join the organization and make contributions first, so that you can be prepared faster when the opportunity comes.
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: There are risks in trying Web3. For example, if you suddenly lose your job, do you need a backup, such as saving 10 months of living expenses?
Teacher James: There are risks, and saving for living expenses is feasible. But what is more important is to improve the ability to resist risks, and not just choose stable industries. Young people should resist risks based on scarcity, and their abilities will become stronger as their experience grows, which is a better choice.
Web3’s Demand for Legal Talent
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: Some people ask whether Web3 has opportunities suitable for legal professionals. Have you met talents with a legal background?
Teacher James: Legal professionals are completely suitable. For example, a professional law firm like Mankiw, I have witnessed its growth, the founders and main lawyers are very excellent, it is a good choice. Just like the HR people asked me, I would recommend Talentverse, first enter Web3 as a service provider or consulting agency. The same goes for lawyers, you can talk to Mankiw. Another type, traditional lawyers are divided into litigation, contracts, etc., the key is to look at scarcity. The number of lawyers switching to Web3 is less than that of programmers, and the proportion of legal departments in enterprises is also smaller than that of technology, but the income is not low.
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: In addition to lawyers, do companies or project parties have any needs for non-legal positions?
Teacher James: Yes, especially in large organizations. There are few project methodological positions, and most are outsourced, similar to human resources positions. Project parties cannot be without HR, but legal matters are often outsourced to law firms. Medium and large organizations have legal affairs, which play a gatekeeper role in contracts, labor arbitration, and litigation. In the early days of Web3, demand has not yet fully emerged, and compliance requirements will increase in the future.
James's life insights
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: Finally, please share a unique subjective insight into life, which can be life experience or observations on Web3 and HR.
Teacher James: My greatest realization at this moment is: find the intersection between market demand and talent and interest, and then work hard without hesitation.
Lawyer Niu Xiaojing: I have gained a lot from this conversation. Your sharing has strengthened my determination. In your words, it is “working hard without hesitation.” Thank you very much for our in-depth communication today!
Professor James: Thank you to Lawyer Niu and Mankiw for giving me this opportunity. Although we haven’t met offline yet, I enjoyed this conversation very much. It has given me more thoughts about the past and the future, and I look forward to more exchanges in the future.
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