This article is excerpted from an interview with Gavin Wood at the PBA Bali event this year!
I hope to change this situation through a series of new initiatives.
Michael: Hello everyone! Today we bring a very special interview that we have been looking forward to for a long time. We have invited Dr. Gavin Wood - the co-founder of Ethereum and the founder of Polkadot. Gavin, welcome to Bali.
Gavin: Thank you, I'm very happy to be here.
Michael: For those in the community who may only have a basic understanding of you or have not followed your journey for a long time, could you briefly share your story?
Gavin: I grew up in the UK, went to university, and later pursued a PhD, focusing on music visualization, which is how to convert music into images. After graduating, I joined Microsoft Research, working on programming languages.
I truly entered the blockchain world in 2013. At that time, I read a newspaper article and started to pay attention to Bitcoin again. In fact, I knew about Bitcoin back in 2011, but I bought too early and didn't hold on (laughs). It wasn't until the end of 2013 that I received an early version of Vitalik's Ethereum white paper and actively offered to help write code. That December, I started coding, and a month or two after Ethereum officially launched, I became a co-founder and served as the CTO of the Ethereum Foundation for about a year.
Afterward, I left and founded Parity Technologies, where the team worked on a lot of foundational technology:
Developed a Bitcoin client
Developed an Ethereum client
Developed a Zcash client
In 2017, I founded the Web3 Foundation and initiated the Polkadot crowdfunding. We then launched Kusama first, officially launched the Polkadot mainnet in 2020, and parachains were activated as scheduled in 2021.
Since then, I have been working hard to realize the vision I outlined in the 2016 Polkadot white paper. Over the past two years, my main focus has been on JAM—this is a significant technological upgrade for Polkadot. At the same time, I am also advancing the Proof of Personhood project, hoping to launch it later this year.
Michael: Our community has quite a few users from Ethereum who have followed your journey from Ethereum to Polkadot and are familiar with the development cycles of parachains, their launch, and the evolution of the early ecological projects. However, as the crypto industry becomes more crowded and the information noise increases, many people may have missed Polkadot's recent important developments.
Today's Polkadot is at a very interesting juncture; you could say it is a 'new birth after the era of parachains'—a kind of restart. Standing at this point in time, what are you most excited about in the ecosystem? Do you think the overall ecological condition of Polkadot is healthy? What keeps you motivated every morning and makes you look forward to Polkadot?
Gavin: For me, the most exciting thing is the people—the builders in the ecosystem. Especially those teams that have been cultivating in Polkadot for several years, who generally have a very correct mindset: they understand clearly why they are doing these things and fully comprehend why they choose Polkadot's technology.
The second point is my appreciation for Polkadot as a platform itself. The technology we are building is fundamentally solid and excellent; it is ready to support products that can truly change the world—not just serve the 300,000 to 400,000 crypto natives, but serve everyone. This was the original intention of Polkadot’s design.
However, I must also admit that many technologies and products on Polkadot at this stage still rely to some extent on users who are already within the crypto circle. This inevitably limits the audience. Moreover, crypto natives are easily distracted by various noises in the industry.
Therefore, I hope we can change this situation through a series of new initiatives, one very important direction being 'Proof of Personhood.'
Gavin redefines the meaning of Web3 as Agency.
Michael: Is the term 'Web3' indeed the one you proposed first?
Gavin: I think so.
Michael: Since you were one of the earliest proponents of the Web3 concept, how would you explain Web3 as we move into the Web3 era? What was your vision back then?
Gavin: The term 'Web3' was created by me in April 2014, just before my 24th birthday. It initially referred to the entire technological system we were about to enter while developing Ethereum.
At that time, we were building Ethereum, a smart contract platform. If you have read the early versions of the Ethereum white paper, it actually describes Ethereum as 'Bitcoin with better scripting.' Vitalik understood it in this way as well.
But after I joined, I saw that it was far more than that—it was a critical component in building the next generation of networks and the infrastructure for large-scale multi-user applications. But it is just one component, not the whole. I believe this system still needs other parts, such as BitTorrent, browsers, and a method of inter-node communication that doesn't require consensus or payment of fees.
For me, Web3 is a combination of a whole set of technologies.
However, today, this term has been severely diluted. Many projects and individuals in the market no longer use it in accordance with its original meaning, but that's the reality.
So the question arises: Why should people use Web3? Why not continue using Web2 banking apps, iPhones, or the Apple ecosystem?
The answer is just one word—Agency.
Web3 empowers you with true agency; it makes you the master of your own destiny—becoming an autonomous actor in society. This is the fundamental meaning of Web3.
When I wrote that initial 'manifesto' (or whatever you wish to call it), I didn't actually approach it from the perspective of 'agency.' The argument at that time was quite simple: this technology should exist; otherwise, governments, companies, or various institutions will eventually harm you.
But I didn't talk about what mindset people should adopt to avoid being controlled, how to maintain autonomy, nor did I discuss deeper personal philosophy or social philosophy. And these things are necessary. Moreover, it's not just me who thinks this way. If you speak with some truly insightful people—some of whom I also call friends—they will also say: having just technology is not enough.
If we want this technology to truly go mainstream, we must give people a 'new perspective on the world,' a way to understand why we should go further.
Because now, people do need to 'go further.'
For example, what does 'going further' mean today? It's registering for an exchange account, going through a bunch of KYC, trying to transfer money from the bank, only to be told by the bank: 'You can't transfer money to that account, it's a crypto exchange, we don't trust that you're playing with cryptocurrency.' The entire onboarding process is terrible.
And this bad situation is not coincidental, as the existing system fundamentally does not want 8 billion people to easily enter a new financial system.
Apple, Netflix, the banking system, and even Solana have not truly empowered people with agency.
Michael: As you just mentioned, existing systems will not willingly exit the historical stage; they will do everything they can to maintain their position within the monetary system. From a research perspective, I completely understand your meaning. Personally, I also grew up in the Ethereum community and have been deeply involved since 2017, so I have a deep affection for that ecosystem.
But later, the reason I followed your philosophy to Polkadot was because of 'decentralization.' In my past experience in traditional business, I gradually became a kind of 'decentralization geek' in a sense.
However, what saddens me is that the entire industry seems to be increasingly divided into three types of people:
Those who firmly believe in decentralization (maxis)
Those who only come to make money and speculate
Trend followers who chase after the latest hype—coming in because they think Web3 is cool today, but leaving immediately when the market suggests a peak
The number of people who truly adhere to the philosophy of decentralization is actually decreasing.
You mentioned the concept of 'agents' a few days ago, so I want to ask: what do you hope the 'agents' in this ecosystem should do? How do you hope they will stand at the forefront to drive the development of the ecosystem?
Gavin: Firstly, they must truly understand what it means to 'become an agent.' This concept is much deeper than most people think. Even if someone can intuitively express a rough idea, truly internalizing this set of ideas and constantly reminding oneself—this is the key first step to acting correctly.
The second step is education. Helping those who 'want to become agents' or 'have the potential to become agents' to understand this mindset, so they can grow into true agents.
The third step is widespread advocacy, bringing this mindset to the larger world, not just limited to the crypto circle.
You mentioned 'decentralization geeks.' But frankly, the term 'decentralization' has become severely diluted, used too often and too casually.
This is exactly why I believe we should adopt a more direct and powerful expression, rather than continue relying on a term that has become ambiguous—this is also why I prefer to use the concept of 'agent.'
It has a rigorous definition in economics; whereas 'decentralization' is often misunderstood as 'distribution.'
Ten years ago, someone drew a diagram distinguishing centralization, decentralization, and distribution. Many people think of 'decentralization,' but in that diagram, it's called 'distribution'; whereas my original understanding of 'decentralization' is closer to 'federalism'—similar to breaking the center into multiple parts and connecting them into a loose network, just like today's banking system.
Therefore, the term 'decentralization' is now both vague and lacking in power. In contrast, 'agency' emphasizes the individual and the agency of 'the individual as a subject.'
Of course, you could also use 'self-sovereignty,' but that concept is too long and can easily bring political connotations; in contrast, 'agency' is concise, powerful, and less controversial, and the economics community can fully understand it.
For me, the core of all this is: helping people understand what mindset they should have. Or more accurately: they actually already have this mindset, it just hasn't been clearly expressed yet.
And once they realize this, it becomes easy to further understand: to implement this personal philosophy, you need matching technical support.
Because existing services—Apple, Netflix, the banking system, and even Solana (thanks for mentioning it)—have not truly empowered you with this 'agency.'
I'm not saying Solana is as bad as Apple—Apple is obviously worse. But you should understand what I mean.
True competition is not about money, but about values.
Michael: As agents in the Polkadot ecosystem, including myself, we have been facing 'money offensives' from other ecosystems. When we try to persuade large institutions to build in the Web3 environment, we often have to compete with those ecosystems that 'throw money to grab projects'—we won't name that one, but everyone understands.
Gavin: That's just how things are. Money can indeed buy attention, but at a very high cost. And if that attention doesn't eventually convert into long-term usage and long-term building, then that money spent is meaningless. Because that money was never intended for long-term ecology, but rather for short-term interests and short-term performance.
So, if the other party relies on spending money but cannot create long-term value, we can completely be patient and watch the situation unfold. There’s no need to compete with money against money. If we must compete, then let’s use 'philosophy' to counter 'money.'
You can tell the other party: 'Yes, they have money, they are backed by big VCs, so of course they have money. They represent the existing system. If you want to continue living in this existing system, then you can indeed choose them. But we have another philosophy—we believe that kind of 'existing system lifestyle' does not truly benefit you. If you want to leave that system and choose another value system, we provide the technology and show you how to use it.'
Of course, it is also acceptable to provide some incentives appropriately during the process—at the right time, in the right way, and in a fair form; I do not oppose it. But this is not the same concept as 'turning on the money tap for a football team.'
Education is the path to freedom.
Michael: Well, this statement is for everyone to interpret (laughs). As someone building products in the Polkadot ecosystem, I am very grateful for projects like PBA. It can be truly saddening to see teams choose to leave because of money rather than stay because of philosophy. So I am very thankful that PBA can come to this region to help us promote the technologies and ideas we want to promote.
The last question is, what is the future of PBA? Where will it go? What is your ultimate vision?
Gavin: Ultimately, PBA is part of our entire philosophical system. Our philosophy is that education is a key component in building a better society.
The technology itself can only do so much, but people must understand 'why to use these technologies.' These people include users, developers, as well as policymakers.
The core target of PBA is mainly developers, engineers, and technical personnel; it also includes some founders and increasingly more decision-makers. PBA-X, on the other hand, is more oriented towards enthusiasts and ordinary users.
There is a saying on my travel backpack: 'Educate to liberate.'
This is exactly what we are doing. Education is helping people better understand the world they are in.
What we are doing in education will help people understand the world around Web3, Polkadot, and to some extent, around 'individual agency.'
In the future, the curriculum of PBA might:
Add more content about 'individual agency.'
Focus more on 'products.'
Discuss more about 'how to reach ordinary users.'
Relatively reduce some hardcore technical content about 'how Polkadot's underlying structure is built.'
This is my speculation about the future direction of PBA's curriculum.
But one thing I am very sure of is that PBA, and education itself, is an indispensable part of our entire project philosophy. To some extent, this is also my personal philosophy.
This is also why we are willing to invest resources to support educational projects: we pursue 'true education'—academic rigor and attention to foundational principles, including economics, game theory, cryptography, and other fundamental disciplines, rather than just teaching you 'how to immediately use a certain API' or 'how to quickly issue a meme coin.'
We're not here to chase temporary dopamine hits. We're here because we believe that as long as enough people genuinely use these technologies, it will make the world a better place.
Michael: Well said. Thank you for all your efforts. We have been closely following your work, and I truly appreciate your promotion of these ideas. The road ahead for the industry is still long, so thank you for coming to Bali.
Gavin: I'm glad to be here, thank you all.
Original video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eupXkAVCeKg
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