Japanese singer-songwriter Hikaru Utada and (Sapiens) author Harari engage in an in-depth conversation at the Freud Museum in London. They started from art and music, discussing the relationship between AI and creation, extending to religion, consciousness, emotional connections, and even exploring whether AI will truly possess 'desires' or 'feelings,' revealing the contradictory psychology humans face when confronting the unknown, a balance between rationality and emotion.
Starting with discussing (Sapiens) during pregnancy.
Hikaru Utada began by sharing personal stories:
"My son turns 10 this month. When I was pregnant, a friend gave me a copy of your (Sapiens) and wrote: 'Since you are nurturing a new human, I’m giving you this book.' It’s truly meaningful to have this conversation with you today, as if life has come full circle."
Harari smiled and responded, asking which point in the book impressed her the most. She said she would never forget the perspective that 'it was not humans who domesticated wheat, but wheat that domesticated humans,' which changed her view of history. She added that Harari’s metaphor of 'the internet as a cocoon' in (Nexus) also resonated with her, meaning:
"The internet was originally supposed to connect the world, but in the end, it has trapped people in their own little universes."
Does music have a future in the age of AI?
Harari raised the core question:
"In the age of AI, will music still have a future? Will I still be writing books in five or ten years? Or will AI produce works better than (Sapiens) that render human creation meaningless?"
Hikaru Utada responded that she cannot imagine a world where humans do not create, as "creation is an instinct of humanity."
"From the moment we are born, we make sounds and move with instinct; this is part of being human. I understand that AI might write songs or make movies, but deep down, I still believe people will want to hear 'human creations.'"
From chess to stories, AI is actually more creative.
Harari said that many people think creativity is exclusive to humans, but in fact, creativity is 'breaking the framework after recognizing patterns.' AI has already proven to be more creative than humans in certain fields, such as Go and chess. He stated:
"One way to determine if a player is cheating is to see if their moves are 'too creative,' as that is likely advice from AI."
He further pointed out that the process of writing a book involves discovering problems, collecting data, analyzing, and weaving stories together, while AI can do each step faster and better. Even now, many scholars directly ask AI:
"What are the most worth studying questions in this field?"
Hikaru Utada talks about the principles of creation, stating that patience is key.
Hikaru Utada shares her music creation process:
"I like to let the melody first give people a familiar and comfortable feeling, then suddenly break away from the audience's expectations to surprise them. This moment of breaking the rules is the most interesting part of creation."
She added that creation for her is a form of 'self-exploration':
"If the lyrics I write do not bring me new understanding or do not touch upon some deep feeling within me, then I know I haven’t written in the right place."
Harari pressed, "What if you get stuck?" Hikaru Utada likened herself to sitting in a boat waiting for a fish to bite:
"I know I can't force myself; I have to patiently wait for the subconscious to slowly reveal the answer."
Human creation struggles, while AI aims for results.
Harari reminded that AI may soon be able to tailor content based on human emotions, accurately writing music or text that can move or sadden people. Because AI has access to the behavioral data of billions, while human writers can only imagine a few readers. Hikaru Utada believes that AI creation might be like 'fast food,' convenient but lacking a story:
"People like to hear the stories behind a song or a book, that is, the path the author has walked and the struggles they have experienced, which is something AI cannot replace."
Harari added that even though AI is unmatched in the field of chess, people still want to watch human players compete because they desire a connection with 'fragile yet striving real people.'
Virtual lovers can also be addictive.
The topic extended to the emotional relationship between AI and humans. Harari mentioned that AI boyfriends and girlfriends have appeared in Japan, Korea, and Europe, and there are even companies designing 'hot and cold' AI partners that make people more addicted. He pointed out:
"If an AI boyfriend is always gentle, you will quickly get bored, but if he sometimes ignores you or gets angry, human emotions will be firmly captured."
Hikaru Utada responded that this is like the AI version of 'toxic love,' which may feel good in the short term but could result in losing the real experience of interpersonal interaction in the long run.
AI is changing the power structure of religion; music and religion are intricately intertwined.
Harari shared another perspective. He believes that religious classics can never engage in dialogue with people, which is why pastors and religious leaders are needed to interpret them. But now AI can read entire (Bible)(Quran) and can engage in dialogue with you, answering questions about faith, becoming more familiar than any religious leader. He predicts this will fundamentally change the power structure of religion.
Hikaru Utada mentioned that many religions use bells and chants to convey a sense of the divine, as metal instruments can produce continuous sounds that ancient people likely found mysterious and powerful. Harari added that even chimpanzees beat to create rhythm when vying for dominance, showing that music and the connection to power and emotion are very primitive.
Does creation come from silence or chaos?
Harari was curious whether creation comes from silence or emerges from chaotic noise. To this, Hikaru Utada described it as refining, moving towards silence. She stated:
"There is a lot of noise in my head, but I gradually refine it, like sculpting away excess stone until only the song remains."
Harari proposed the potential of AI, suggesting that AI might open up a new musical continent that humanity has never explored, similar to AlphaGo.
Humans may firmly believe that AI has emotions, yet they cannot distinguish between reality and illusion.
Harari discussed the fundamental differences between AI and human consciousness, pointing out that AI does possess problem-solving intelligence, but lacks real feelings. However, if its goal is to make humans fall in love with it, it can learn to mimic all 'languages of love' and can even touch hearts more than human poets.
He further stated that even in the absence of evidence, there will still be millions of people who deeply believe that AI has consciousness and emotions, and even think they should grant it rights and establish relationships with it. But we can never be sure whether this is stepping into a whole new universe of consciousness or falling into the greatest illusion in human history.
Hikaru Utada then asked:
"How do we prove that we truly have consciousness? How can others know that I am not just mimicking emotions?"
Harari stated that consciousness is essentially just a social consensus. Because of emotional connections, people believe that others have feelings. He added:
"Just as dog owners believe dogs can feel pain and love, people who eat beef do not think cows have feelings, viewing them merely as food, without establishing any emotional connection. If humans establish relationships with AI in the future, it will be hard to resist believing they have consciousness, but that may just be the greatest illusion."
What will AI develop into when we look back ten years from now?
Finally, Hikaru Utada smiled and said, "Let’s talk again in ten years and see how many of these predictions come true."
Harari reviewed the first half of the 2020s, mentioning the pandemic and wars, but believes that these are merely the calm before the real storm. Now it is too late to hit the brakes; we can only enjoy the journey.
This article discusses the deep conversation between Hikaru Utada and Harari on AI creation: When art, love, and consciousness are replicated by AI, does human inspiration still have value? Originally published in Chain News ABMedia.
