Has the crypto industry failed?
In the last part of this three-hour in-depth conversation, Gavin did not give a simple yes or no, but took us back to the idealism of ten years ago and then through today’s reality of pressure and alienation. He talked about the boundaries of 'failure,' the corrosion of the industry, and the boundaries of responsibility, as well as how 'anger' drives him to continue acting—even when he knows he cannot change everything.
He said: 'I may not be able to change anything, but what I'm doing now might be the strongest way I can do it.'
They talked about wealth, freedom, health, and the sovereignty of time, and they also talked about JAM—the vision and concerns behind this 'magical internet supercomputer'.
If you still have a glimmer of faith in the future of the crypto world, this conversation is worth reading to the end.
Part One (Gavin Wood: USDT is an extremely regulated centralized bank! The more compliant, the further it strays from its original intention?)
Part Two (Gavin Wood: Do Ethereum, Solana, and Polkadot need to cooperate? It's difficult, but not impossible!)
Part Three ('I'm not good at management' — Gavin Wood's choice is also an opportunity for Polkadot!)
Part Four (Gavin Wood: Good technology must win! JAM is the 'new PC' of Web3, and everything is just beginning!)
Has the crypto industry failed?
Kevin: I saw a very interesting tweet that you liked; I only captured part of it: 'Cryptocurrency has not brought freedom; it has just tied a token to everyone’s soul and called it 'progress.' I complained about this to a friend, and he said, 'This is not a crypto issue; it's a money issue; money corrupts everything.' Perhaps the problem really lies here. As time goes on, the voices criticizing the crypto industry are becoming increasingly clear. Do you think the crypto industry has failed?
Gavin: Has it failed? I think it's too early to talk about failure.
But this industry is indeed, to some extent, moving towards what it was originally meant to resist—gradually being assimilated and marginalized by the mainstream system. This is certain!
Have influential people made some bad decisions? Yes!
Have we seen selfishness overwhelm the original ideals of 'crypto punks'? Many times, yes!
We see the industry compromising and cutting corners, and in the end, it's hard to say whether these projects can still be considered 'crypto'. I think they can!
But this isn't over. If we say it 'failed', that would be like putting a period at the end of a sentence, but it's still continuing.
Actually, this phenomenon has long existed. If you go back to 2013, there were already many 'shitcoins'. Some have survived and are even doing quite well, like Dogecoin. This doesn't mean that there is no self-serving behavior in the industry; money is inherently a 'stick that stirs the shit.'
If we look back—like veterans such as Left Terras, who has been in this industry for over 10 years. I remember I recruited him into Ethereum in 2014, and he has been here ever since.
But for some developers, doing a project might just be a few days of hackathon, at most spending a year and a half building a system. Very few people spend more than a year and a half on a project before seeing results. Like Donald Knuth, who worked on technology for ten years, there are probably only one or two.
Those of us who have been in the industry for over 10 years now look back and feel that the results are far from the ideals of the past. Of course, it's not all our fault. As programmers, we always underestimate how difficult it is to achieve something. Writing code isn't like building bridges; it's more like doing research. Many people misunderstand the nature of development.
Another reality is: society has to 'want' these products or 'need' them. Some products have already been recognized by society as necessary, such as Bitcoin and TRON, which are two typical examples. People realize that they do need stablecoins; they are a good alternative to traditional banks. In earlier years, people used Bitcoin for remittances instead of Western Union; now it has basically turned into using USDT running on the TRON chain. Although I personally think TRON is pretty stupid and the transaction fees have little advantage, at least it serves a certain purpose. So yes, looking back, you will find that the achievements we have made in the past ten years—the truly useful ones are only a few; most of the others, to put it bluntly, are 'shitcoins'. It's easy to feel frustrated; I can understand that.
Kevin: I feel that this industry is indeed undergoing a transformation. There was a group of people who joined the crypto field over ten years ago, with pure intentions and firm direction. What they wanted was not just beautiful engineering and good products, but to achieve true decentralization and create systems that could stand the test of time. But if they leave one after another due to achieving 'financial freedom' too early, how can we get this industry back on the right track?
Gavin: I think... there will always be people joining in. I actually don't know.
Why did I come here? Perhaps out of curiosity. I'm not anyone special, and it's not because 'wow, this circle is so cool, all crypto punks' that I joined.
Actually, when I first came in, most of the people I met were quite ordinary, and many of the 'talented' people I met later were recruited by me. I don't think this is a 'life-and-death' crisis. On the contrary, this industry really needs 'fresh blood' and new perspectives, needs the imagination of the new generation.
Just like JAM, it is essentially a brand new computing platform that can handle more types of problems, with computing power and storage capacity increased exponentially. But the problem is, if the people using it only have Bitcoin and Ethereum in their minds, they might just use it to create faster NFTs.
What's the point? There's no point!
We won't gain real progress just by making existing things faster and stronger. This is the 'Betamax problem' (advanced technology that nobody uses).
We need some newcomers who are not trapped by traditional blockchain thinking. When they see JAM, they will think: 'Oh, I can write a regular C++ program, compile it, and it can run directly on this “magical internet supercomputer.”'
Yes, that's JAM.
You ask me what JAM is? It is the 'magical internet supercomputer'.
But if I explain JAM to Ethereum programmers like this, they would probably just think: 'Oh, isn't this just a Dex (decentralized exchange) that can process 100,000 transactions per second? It's 100 times faster than Ethereum?'
I can only say: 'Yes, but... that's not the point at all.'
So I believe that those veterans who have left the industry have actually made room for new ideas and leadership space for the new generation to come in.
Kevin: So you think this is actually a good thing? At least not a bad thing?
Gavin: I don't think it's a bad thing; it's even necessary.
Financial freedom is a double-edged sword.
Kevin: What is the most important thing in your life?
Gavin: Did I answer that last time? The most important thing... might be health. Health is very important to me. My children, friends, and freedom are also very important. I can't say which is the most important; I think it’s health.
Kevin: When did you realize that health is the most important?
Gavin: It's not like I had a sudden epiphany; maybe I had this concept from a young age. My mom emphasized health from an early age and instilled this idea in me. For me, health, happiness, and family are all intertwined. You can't look at them separately; all are indispensable. You have to find a way to balance these things. But I can say one thing—money is a double-edged sword.
Kevin: Double-edged sword? Last time you said 'pursuing wealth is a fool's game.' This time it sounds a bit more optimistic?
Gavin: Yes, I think 'pursuing wealth' is a fool's game, but once you really have a certain amount of wealth, it becomes a double-edged sword.
Kevin: Why is it a double-edged sword?
Gavin: Because wealth can become a burden. It can indeed help you open some doors in life, but sometimes those 'doors' are just 'pseudo-questions' in life—seemingly meaningful but actually a waste of time. That's why I say it’s a double-edged sword.
Kevin: So what burdens does wealth bring? Can you give an example?
Gavin: First, you have to manage that wealth, right? If you don't care about money at all, then it certainly won't control you. But for most people, there is still an instinct—we want to preserve our wealth and assets. This obsession is a burden in itself. Moreover, money does open some doors for you, but some doors do not lead to happiness.
Kevin: For example?
Gavin: For example, you buy a countryside villa. You think of living like a British aristocrat, with a butler, maids, kitchen staff, and cleaning personnel, living a lifestyle like that of Downton Abbey. But all this comes at a price, a very high price. You have to sacrifice privacy and shoulder the pressures that come with this lifestyle. You will find yourself tied to that place, feeling 'I've invested so much money and effort into this, not living there would be a waste,' which is a classic sunk cost mentality. Although this example may seem silly, I have indeed had some personal experience that this lifestyle can affect your enjoyment of life and your sense of freedom.
I had basically never done a nine-to-five job before. I tried it for a while, about a year. I had to be at work by nine every morning, and if I was late, my boss would be unhappy. Then I would work for eight hours and leave at five-thirty. During that time, I felt like life was slipping away, and I became a slave to my lifestyle, so I quit. I wanted more freedom and to control my daily rhythm. That's also why at Parity we don't have the concept of 'fixed working hours'. Everyone can come to the office if they want to, and if they don’t, that’s fine too. We are remote-first.
I believe that as long as society allows, people should have control over their own time. And after becoming wealthy, many people fall into a 'lifestyle trap'—they feel that since they have money, they should live in a mansion, hire a bunch of people, and live the life of a 'successful person.' But soon, this lifestyle will turn around and consume you, trapping you, becoming the cage you built.
I know a person named Heim. He made a fortune in the early days of Web2, around 2001. I don't know how much he made, but he owns an apartment building worth 25 million dollars, and his net worth is estimated to be at least eight or even nine figures. He once fell into a state of 'lifestyle control'. Eventually, he couldn't take it anymore, bought a boat, sold all his properties, and started living a life at sea with his wife. He said it was actually easier and happier this way. He used to have a family office with a bunch of employees managing his investments, properties, etc., which caused a lot of stress. Later, he decided to clear everything out. Although he still hasn't sold that apartment, he is working hard to deal with it.
In response to injustice, I can only do what I can do.
Kevin: I recently read Robert Greene's 'The 48 Laws of Power', which mentions that everyone has a dark side inside them. Do you have an 'inner darkness' that you must face and learn to control in order to take charge of your life?
Gavin: I think... it should be the anger against 'injustice'. Especially when that injustice is directed against people I identify with or resonate with, I feel particularly upset.
Kevin: Does that mean you have a lot of empathy?
Gavin: Maybe, but it’s a kind of 'selective' empathy—more intense for the groups I can resonate with. It doesn't mean I empathize with the suffering of the whole world. The closer something is to me, the greater its emotional impact on me. I once saw an interview with former British MP Rory Stewart. He once competed with Boris Johnson for the position of Prime Minister (which he did not win). In the interview, he talked about the Iraq war. When asked whether it was reasonable for the US to deploy troops, he quoted a phrase: 'Ought follows can.' This was a concept I hadn't heard much about before.
Kevin: What does that mean?
Gavin: It means you shouldn't do something you absolutely don't have the capability to accomplish. In other words, if you can't be sure you can solve a problem, then you shouldn't recklessly intervene. Take the Iraq War as an example: perhaps the Iraqi government at that time did have problems, and perhaps the Iraqi people indeed deserve a better social system, but the US military did not have reasonable confidence or capability to create a better situation. The facts have also proven that the war brought more bloodshed, corruption, and chaos. Rory's point is that no rational person would believe that war can really achieve a better outcome than the status quo. Therefore, waging war is unreasonable in itself.
This is actually a fundamental principle in political philosophy: a collective should not resort to force unless it has sufficient reason to believe that such force can truly solve the problem. It’s like when your phone is broken, you want to fix it with a hammer. You have to ask yourself: Can the hammer really fix the phone? If not, then you shouldn't do it. This principle has helped me resolve many of my own internal conflicts. In the face of the world's injustices, sometimes I feel sad, angry, or even a sense of responsibility. But when I calm down, I realize that there are many things I can't help with. What I can do might just be what I'm currently doing; it may be the most powerful way I can push for change, from small matters to big ones—be it as large as war and genocide or as small as my child not seeing their father.
The crypto industry should have more young people who have not been influenced by the past ten years.
Kevin: Can you tell me something from your life that I can remember in the future?
Gavin: What do you want to do with this?
Kevin: Just like everyone thinks—becoming happier. How can you be happy?
Gavin: I think the key to happiness is to maintain curiosity while finding joy in exploration. Curiosity is very important. But don't take it too seriously or too heavily. Of course, it doesn't mean you should joke about everything like Elon Musk, but I do believe that maintaining a bit of a relaxed attitude and playing with curiosity is the secret to happiness.
Kevin: Thank you, Gavin, for another wonderful conversation. Thank you for upholding the true spirit and values of crypto; this industry really needs more people like you.
Gavin: Thank you very much. Hmm... it would be better if there were more younger people who haven't been polluted by the past ten years!
Kevin: Awesome, thank you.
Original video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyMxSIFyXwo
